The Working Artist Conversations with Joe Ray

The Working Artist Conversations with Joe Ray

Crista Cloutier: Hello, I’m Crista Cloutier of The Working Artist, and I want to welcome you to The Working Artist Conversations. It’s all about the conversations that artists have. Joe Ray is a painter, printmaker, sculptor, and public artist based in the American Southwest. I’ve loved Joe’s work for years. We’re old friends, and he’s one of the first artists I ever worked with when I was working at the studio. I don’t know if you even remember that.

Joe Ray: I do, vaguely.

Crista Cloutier: He’s represented by contemporary art gallery Royce Contemporary and is a longtime member of Chico, a Latino and Native arts collective in Phoenix. His work has been shown in solo and group exhibitions, installed in public art commissions across the region, from small-town parks to major public memorials, and he was selected for a statewide program bringing artists to speak publicly across Arizona. He also has taught at Arizona State University, one of the largest universities in the United States. Joe, welcome.

Joe Ray: Thank you.

Crista Cloutier: You wear a lot of hats: gallery artist, public artist, teacher, speaker. If you had to name the one thing that connects all of it and makes you Joe Ray, what would you say that is?

Joe Ray: Creativity. I think creative is creative. So regardless of what discipline you’re in, you have to be creative. As an artist, creativity is first and foremost. I think even for non-artists, being creative is first and foremost.

Crista Cloutier: So you believe everyone is creative?

Joe Ray: I do.

Crista Cloutier: Yeah. And what makes artists different?

Joe Ray: I think artists are different in how they approach creativity, because we’re willing to put it out there more. Personally put it out there, not just for commerce or to fulfill something or to check a box, but there’s that inner drive that forces you. Sometimes I don’t think we have a choice. That drive is going to get it out of you one way or another. So I think that’s part of being creative, and that’s where the artist steps out from the pack in being creative.

Crista Cloutier: I agree. Now, when I look at your career, you’re not just painting and hoping. You’ve built a practice out of galleries, public commissions, teaching, and now speaking. A lot of artists never figure out how to do that. If a working artist came to you and said, “I’m only selling through galleries,” or “only selling online, and it’s not enough,” what’s the first thing you would have them consider?

Joe Ray: Diversify. Specialize, but diversify your specialties. Where else can you share what you do? And if you’re having a hard time making it from a commerce, from a financial standpoint, what’s a market need? How can you creatively step into that field? Whether it be merchandising, whether it be commissions. Don’t just sit there and wait for it to come to you. Go to the market.

Crista Cloutier: That’s great advice. What’s a myth about making it as an artist that you’d want to correct for someone starting out?

Joe Ray: I think the biggest myth would be that to make it as an artist, you have to be starving or struggling on your own for a while before somebody discovers you, and you make it from there. I don’t know where that really comes from, but I think that’s a really big myth that a lot of artists, especially young, younger artists, or people that are even older and wanting to get into the artist field, have that misconception. And I think it’s too much of a waiting game. I think you have to go pursue and be a little bit more aggressive in how you pursue it.

Crista Cloutier: And so many artists say, “Oh, but I’m an introvert. I’m shy. I don’t want to promote myself.” But it’s not really promoting yourself, is it?

Joe Ray: It isn’t. It isn’t. I think, if you promote yourself, if you enjoy interacting with other people, you’re going to enjoy it a lot more. If you fight it and say, “God, that’s just not my thing. I’m an introvert. I don’t like getting out there and talking to people. I don’t like talking about my art. My art should speak for itself.” If that’s your approach, it’s going to be a struggle. You’re not going to enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, which I do, then it becomes part of your practice also, because somebody told me a long time ago, you have a gift to share. The world deserves to have your gift shared to it. And I think as artists, we have that ability. And I don’t want to say the obligation, but we do have the ability to share our gifts, our creations, with the world.

Crista Cloutier: Yeah, I love that. So, how do you decide what to say yes to and what to pass on now that you have more opportunities than time?

Joe Ray: I think looking at it, realistically. My background is in graphic design. So I’ve been in marketing in that arena for many years. I just recently transitioned from that a couple of years ago. And with that, you had to always weigh advantages versus disadvantages. What are you going to pursue? What accounts are you going to pitch? What are you going to go after? What’s the payback? And also, you know, what’s in it for me? You need to take that selfish approach there. If, for example, as an artist, if you’re looking at an opportunity and say, “Okay, this isn’t going to pay that much.” Okay, well, what’s the upside? Can you exploit it in a positive manner to promote yourself, to tell other people, “Hey, look what I just did”? And that’s really kind of how I got into public art. I did smaller sculptural pieces, and then one day somebody goes, “No, these can be public art.” And I thought, “Yeah, you’re right.” So I think that’s one of the things that you need to weigh: if there’s not a financial payoff there, what else is in there? But beware of the term “It’s good exposure.” You know, people die of exposure, whether it be cold or whether it be heat. It will kill you. So just be careful of that. Plus, you can’t eat exposure. And then the other thing is, in pursuing an opportunity, nothing’s ever a sure thing. However, there’s always the opportunity to learn and grow from these experiences that you take on.

Crista Cloutier: Absolutely. Your public art includes a piece in a city park in northern Arizona, a shade structure commission for the city of Phoenix, and panels for a memorial in New Mexico honoring those lost to COVID. You were one of six artists selected for that project. Now, most artists have no idea that this world even exists, let alone how to get into it. So walk us through it like we’ve never heard of public art before, because I actually meet a lot of artists who have never heard of public art before. What does an artist even do to get on a city’s radar?

Joe Ray: To get on any kind of radar, whether it be a city, a municipality, or a private entity, you need to, again, put yourself out there, apply. There’s a lot of applications out there, a lot of opportunities that are advertised for artists. Before, I was hesitant to apply for it, because I think I applied years ago for something, and looking back on it, it may not have even been public art, but it was something that had to do with a government entity that I applied for, and there was a lot of paperwork involved with it, and I really didn’t enjoy it at the time. I was in marketing, so it was a distraction for me, so I just saw it as a waste of time and a lot of unnecessary paperwork. However, you fast forward to today, and it’s really pretty simple. It’s all things that, as a professional artist, you’re going to have a body of work, whether it be five pieces, 10 pieces. You’re going to have an artist statement. You’re going to have a résumé of some sort, CV or bio there. And you’re going to have an intent. Why are you applying? That’s one of the things that you’re always asked. It’s a letter of intent or a statement of intent. Why are you interested in this project? And that’s different than your artist statement. It’s why you need to tell this panel of jurors why you would be good for this project, why they should select you for the project, or at least shortlist you for a finalist. Once you get to that, how you approach it really is up to you, up to the artist. You know, is it right for you? One of the things I enjoy about public art is the collaboration that you have with stakeholders, whether they be folks in the city, the arts commission, community members. Then there’s always going to be an engineer, potentially an architect also, and a fabricator who’s going to produce your piece of art, your vision. You’re not going to have to do it all. I’m not a welder, and I’m a really good designer. So I can design things so they can be put together, constructed, fabricated, but I always have a conversation with the fabricator first. And it’s a little bit of a collaboration. “Here’s what I want to do.” A good fabricator will say, “Yeah, that’s really a good idea, but why don’t you try this? It’s more structurally sound,” or “You can save a heck of a lot of money if you are flexible and want to do this.” So you learn from each of those things there. And you know, I shouldn’t say never, but you don’t really do these things yourself. So if you’re considering getting into public art, keep that in mind. You’re not on an island by yourself. And what I found with the cities that I work with, the people that are on these commissions, they are really helpful, because they are there to help you succeed. Nobody’s there to sabotage you. If there’s a reason that you need to change your design or your vision, it’s a much bigger reason for it. They’re not there to sabotage you. They’re there to help you shine, make your project come through and be as good as possible for them, because the completed piece is going to be a showcase piece for you, but it’s also going to be a showcase piece for them as well. And that’s something to keep in mind, but it’s a lot of fun.

Crista Cloutier: It sounds like a really exciting way to work. Really different.

Joe Ray: It is. It’s exciting. It’s fun, but it’s also a lot of work that can, you know, you have to be out there on an install when it’s 115 degrees outside. That takes the fun out of it. And there’s no shade around, because you’re constructing the shade structure. So it gets hot. There’s a different element out there. And in other parts of the country, it can be, you know, freezing temperatures. So there’s that.

Crista Cloutier: Okay. Is there anything that you wish you’d known about community engagement before your first public art project?

Joe Ray: Yeah, I think for community engagement, I had not really done it before my first project, and I thought it was getting a lot of feedback from the neighborhoods, the people that live in the area. And yes, that’s a part of it, but also my eyes were open to public engagement, because my very first project, Sombra: A Celebration of Shade, with the city of Phoenix, that was funded through a Bloomberg Philanthropies grant, we worked with Alhambra High School, with a club there, and these teenagers were fantastic. So there’s different ways of approaching community engagement. And since then, the other community engagement projects I’ve gone, I’ve approached them different, because I’m not so close-minded. But my close-mindedness, I think, was a little bit more fear-based before. I was afraid it was going to be just a lot of work, a lot of tedious meetings, that kind of thing. But it wasn’t.

Crista Cloutier: That’s great. How does it feel to see people engaging with your work in a public setting? Is that different than having a gallery show?

Joe Ray: It is, because if it’s something that’s bright and of substantial size, you’re going to see it from 100 yards away, and people approach it. So seeing people’s expressions as they approach it is really gratifying as an artist. So when they’re engaging with it and kind of looking at it, and sometimes, like, a parent will be there with their child. The child is running around looking at it and just, you know, being a kid, just kind of enjoying themselves. Maybe the art is part of what they’re enjoying. Maybe it isn’t. Whatever it is, they’re enjoying themselves in that space, and the parent can either look at it and sort of wonder, or look at it and go, “What the hell is that?” But they’re there. It’s still an enjoyable moment for them, because they’re with their child. They’re engaging with it.

Crista Cloutier: Yeah. And I would imagine for a lot of people, public art is their entry into art. They’ve never walked into a gallery or museum and might be too intimidated to, but coming across a public art piece, yeah, it opens their mind and their hearts to art in a new way.

Joe Ray: Exactly. Because I think people are more prone to tell their friends and neighbors to go check out this piece, this sculpture that’s at such-and-such park or a certain landmark, as opposed to saying, “Hey, go to the museum and take a look at this,” or “Walk into this gallery over there and take a look at this.” People aren’t going to do that as much.

Crista Cloutier: Right? I remember when I was running the gallery, all the time people would crack open the door and say, “Can we come in? Does it cost anything?” Like they were scared. You know?

Joe Ray: It can be very intimidating.

Crista Cloutier: For the layperson, if you’ve never been in a gallery or museum, you’re not sure what to expect.

Joe Ray: You know, especially you walk in and there’s nobody in there except the gallery owner or maybe a couple of other people. You feel like you’re intruding.

Crista Cloutier: Yeah.

Joe Ray: And I think that’s something — that mystery needs to be taken out.

Crista Cloutier: The online world is doing that a lot, taking that mystery away. So anyone can buy art now.

Joe Ray: Exactly.

Crista Cloutier: And engage with art, which is a great thing. Now, you’ve taught a course at ASU called Cultural Relevance and Branding, and you also run workshops for artists at every level, right?

Joe Ray: Right.

Crista Cloutier: And I’ve heard you say that teaching invigorates you as much as making your own art. So what does a student or a workshop participant give you that solo studio time doesn’t?

Joe Ray: I like to interact with people. I’m a collaborative artist. I like to collaborate with others, and sometimes a collaboration is behind the scenes. The artists in the workshop that I’m teaching don’t know that I’m collaborating with them, or they do know, but it’s a different type of collaboration. They see me as teaching them a technique, how to do something, or I’m there to assist them. I like to tell artists, you’re the singer, I’m your backup singer. You’re here. You’re the star. You’re the star show. You’re front and center stage. I’m just here to back you up and make sure that that you’re in tune and that your song comes out the way you want it to. And that, to me, is really rewarding, because I see people do things that I hadn’t thought of, and I go, “Wow, that’s a pretty good thing to have for my arsenal next time,” and I enjoy that, and just how they approach it. Now, I’ve done workshops with people that are neurodiverse, that are on the spectrum, and how they approach doing something, creating something, is fascinating. It’s very inspiring to me and rewarding at the same time too, because you get to see them do something, and any student will do this. They’ll try to get really complicated. So it’s my job to sort of get them to back out, back up a little bit. Think about this a little bit more and try this, to start simpler. Walk before you go into a full sprint. And I enjoy that, because you see the gleam in their eye, in anybody’s eye, where it’s that aha moment, and that makes you feel really good as the person that helped them get there, the person that taught them, or person is going to take that and go, “I’m going to try something like that next time, too.” So it’s really good. It’s a learning process.

Crista Cloutier: That’s super cool. In your ASU course, is there a question that you asked your students that you think every working artist should be asking themselves?

Joe Ray: The course at ASU was for graphic design majors. So it was getting them to think about multicultural audiences, because I think one of the biggest drawbacks, I think, in how design is taught at the university level is it’s a one-size-fits-all approach. And one of the things I learned through the years, especially in multicultural marketing, is market segments. So unless you’re a marketing major, as a design student or design major, you didn’t come across that term, or you didn’t do a deeper dive into it. There was a book titled Marketing to People Not Like You, which I really enjoyed, and I enjoyed reading it, and it was one of those required readings that I had for the students, and basically it was designing for people that are not like you, and it forced them to think a little bit different, because I think design students are taught to design for each other, and young designers do this too. Once they’re in the field, they tend to design for other designers. And you’re solving a problem. That problem is not a bad problem, but it is a market-based problem. You’re designing something that’s going to go on a shelf. You’re developing a brand that’s reaching out to an audience that you are not a part of. And before you can do that, you need to research what that audience is like. And one of the things that I had them do, which really brought out the more creative students, design students, was persona development. And with persona development, the majority of students had not done that. A couple of them were familiar with the term and the basic concept, but they had not done it before. And I think that really helped the ones that were more creative become that much more creative. Even ones that were struggling, I think once we got into the persona, they were like, “Oh, I get it now.” And I think that’s important. But going back to how artists approach things for public art, you’re designing it for yourself, but it’s also for the community, the people that live there. That’s one of the things that good public artists, especially from out of state, when they come into another state, another city, another state that they are not a part of, they do a lot of research. They do a lot of groundwork. Who are the people that are in that area, in that city, in that community, and what’s the long-lasting effect of their art going to be on those people?

Crista Cloutier: I like that. And even gallery artists — I think it’s important to understand who your audience is, to develop that persona. You know, too many times I hear it’s rich people, or it’s art collectors, and that’s not really understanding your people, because those are such broad categories.

Joe Ray: Exactly. Because I think we all want collectors, but it’s knowing, okay, who are your collectors right now? They’re skewing younger. They’re going to be in their 30s and 40s. The collectors are not the retired rich people that are heading foundations or donating to foundations necessarily. Some of them are, but remember, a lot of your audience is going to be younger professionals, too. One of the things I developed a few years ago was the ability to take a look at who my buyers were and what they were buying. And that was really eye-opening. Taking a look back at the prior 10 to 12 pieces that I had sold and who was buying them. Then it dawned on me, they were they were professionals. They were, mostly in the legal field. Attorneys, men and women.

Crista Cloutier: That’s cool. You were selected for Arizona Speaks, a program through Arizona Humanities, and your talk was called Celestial Messengers: Time Travelers Across Arizona’s Living Landscapes. And it’s built around a concept that you’ve been developing for years. So tell me more about this idea, where it comes from, and where it’s taking you.

Joe Ray: Time-traveling ancients. They are time travelers, and they’re basically my pre-Columbian Mesoamerican ancestors. If they were to come from the past, from the golden age of their civilizations, whether it be the Mayan, whether it be Toltec, whether it be the Aztec, and they had that ability to come into the present day to check in on us, right? Basically, how are we doing? What would they be enamored with? So I’ve got a little bit of humor in there, because they come and they’re really taken by our technology, especially with the fact that a small device like a cell phone has the ability not only to speak to anybody anywhere in the world, but you can take pictures and instantly send those photos, video, those kind of things. But what they’re really connected with, what they really like, are selfies. They love doing selfies, right? That’s a whole new thing. Another thing they’re totally enamored with are Waymos, autonomous cars. You know, sometimes I can picture just a Waymo driving by, and looking, there’s a guy with a large headdress sitting in the back, driving by with a big smile on his face, waving as he drives by. So they’re here to check on us, but they’re asking us the question. The big question that they ask is, “Are you holding up your end of the eternal bargain?” In other words, have you taken our wisdom, our beliefs, our traditions, and carrying them on? And if so, are you carrying them on for good? Did you let them drop? Or is there a more nefarious reason that you’re carrying through with them? In other words, how are you doing?

Crista Cloutier: I don’t want to know how we answer. I don’t want to know how we turned out. It’s a scary question.

Joe Ray: It’s a very frightening question. Yeah, it can be a very precarious one. But I think that it’s a series that I’m really having a really good time with, because here in Arizona, being part of Arizona Speaks, it’s part of America 250, and with the landscapes — okay, for centuries, the American Southwest was where people traveled to and from different parts of the continent. And there were no borders. There were no boundaries. They traveled. They traded with each other. They traded goods, stories, traditions, and cultures. And where two cultures meet and intersect, a third emerges. And typically that shows up in art, in stories, in artifacts. We see it today in the pottery that they left behind, the ruins, their dwellings, those kind of things, where these people traded with each other. So, with my time-traveling agents, my presentation is going to be on how they traveled throughout the Southwest, especially Arizona, and how they interacted with the people that were here.

Crista Cloutier: With other tribes. I’ve heard you describe your heritage as coming from a lineage of artists, builders, and astronomers who looked to the cosmos with wonder. How much of that lineage do you feel like you’re carrying forward?

Joe Ray: That’s an ancestral thing. Much of that lineage I’m carrying forward is hidden beneath the surface. It comes out. Sometimes it’s boom, front and center. Other times it goes back. It just depends upon, I think it shows up as needed.

Crista Cloutier: It’s sort of like a superpower that it’s there if and when you need it. You can call on it.

Joe Ray: Yeah. And I think it would be unwise to have it front and center all the time, like any superpower.

Crista Cloutier: And you’ve talked about your bicultural upbringing, moving between languages and worlds, as part of what shaped this idea. How much of that do you think is actually baked into the work itself?

Joe Ray: Quite a bit. I think especially in my outlook, how I see things, how I view the world, how I observe, is a big part of it. And also the humor. But a majority of my titles are in Spanish, because Spanish was my first language, and it has been replaced by English being my first language. I’m primarily an English speaker now, but I am bilingual, but I spoke Spanish for years before I learned to speak English. And my titles are in Spanish because they have a little bit more of a personal meaning to me when I’m developing something. And it’s sort of, you know, you hear the voices, you have these conversations and voices going on in your head when you’re creating, where you’re painting, sketching, drawing, or developing a concept, and part of those conversations are in Spanish, and then at the end of the piece, or it’s winding down, it’s interesting how Spanish language comes to the surface, and probably because I personally resonate with it a little bit more. It has a little bit different meaning, and it’s sort of a below-the-surface meaning it that it has to it. Not necessarily hidden meaning, but a lot of times when people see it, people that are bilingual or that only speak Spanish will see it, and they go, “I like that,” and they’ll ask something about it, or sometimes they don’t know what to ask about it. They don’t know why they like it, but it resonates with them.

Crista Cloutier: It’s probably the language of the ancestors too. Right?

Joe Ray: Exactly.

Crista Cloutier: Do you have any advice for other artists who are listening?

Joe Ray: Collaborate. Break out of your comfort zone, grow, stretch your wings. With public art, like I said, it was something that I was afraid of trying until I partnered with another artist. We collaborated on the first project that we got. And the first two projects we got, we collaborated together. So he served as a sounding board for me. And our skills complement each other. I couldn’t do what he did, and he couldn’t do what I did. So we came together and we landed a couple of pretty good projects that really got me going on that. But I think collaboration is key. I think it’s a matter of putting your work out there. If you have a website, if you have any kind of following, want to build a following, build your database. Don’t rely on social media. A good way of looking at it is, when you have your own database, you own that. That’s property that you own. And social media is rented property. So it could be gone in a couple of days, could be gone, whatever. At some point it’s gone. And there goes your database. But own your database, and treat your database with respect, because they’re your audience.

Crista Cloutier: I couldn’t agree more. Joe, where can people find you online?

Joe Ray: My website is joeay.com, and on social media, I’m on Instagram as @joerayc8iv. And that’s Joe Ray C-R-8-I-V.

Crista Cloutier: Lovely. Thank you so much.

Joe Ray: Thank you. This has been fun. I enjoy this.

Crista Cloutier: And if you want to learn more about The Working Artist, visit my website at theworkingartist.com.

Written by Crista Cloutier, artist mentor + founder of The Working Artist. (learn more about Crista here)